The efficiency of scopes/lasers - Statistics/Discussion

Entropia Universe Discussion Items
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[CENTER]https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/1/3/Skillmod.jpg[/CENTER]

A lot of research, and attempts to research the efficiency of items with skillmodification have been made the last couple of months. The last thread was rather messy, so I thought we could just try to gather all of the statistics and test samples on the first page instead. So, those will be found in the next post.

The old thread can be found here

Hit Ability
The Hit Ability on a weapon determines how often the user will be able to hit the target. It is affected by your skills, certain skills affects the Hit Ability in a certain way, some more than others. The H/A may also be higher or lower depending on if the weapon is a SIB weapon or not.

Previous tests have shown that the H/A ranges from 80% hits (0.0) to 91% hits (10.0). The impact which this will have on the economy of the weapon is rather impressive, which is why most people out there who are yet to max a regular weapon are instead using limited ones, or SIB weapons.

The efficiency of items with skillmodification on non-maxed weapons
It is believed, or at least - I believe that items with skillmodification will increase your (real) Hit Ability. It is yet to be shown on the weapons stats, but my tests have shown that the Hit Rate is indeed increased.

My test have so far shown that the skillmodification increases your H/A with the skillmodification percentage number on the item. Thus, an item with 30% in skillmodification would increase the weapons H/A from 5.0 to 6.5.

The efficiency of items with skillmodification on maxed weapons
This is currently unknown, it is however possible that these items with skillmodification also increases your skillgain, or such.

Attachments and their TT Value
I have yet to do any large tests with attachments that have a low TT Value. It may however be possible that the TT Value of the attachments have an impact on their efficiency. This means that a laser with half its TT value may not increase the H/A as much as a laser with a maximum TT Value. This has yet to be shown in any large tests however.

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[SIZE=“4”]Test Sample 1 - 5000 Shoots:[/SIZE]

I thought I’d do another large test to see what the results would be. And so far, they’re still positive. It’s a hard task to fire 5000 shots, as that would end up being approximately 100k Ammo Cells on a Strikehammer. I thought I’d be better off just using a regular Mann MPH, as it is faster - and the possible loss while doing such a test would be lesser.

[CENTER]https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/1/3/HitRate.jpg
Here’s a diagram over the amount of misses per 100 shoots.
As you can see, the amount of misses ranged from 7 to 24.
It is possible that the misses over 20 were caused by lag, package loss or such,
which may mean that the Hit Rate should be higher. [/CENTER]

Stats, calculations:
Weapon Used: Mann MPH
Hit Ability: 5.2
Calculated Hit Rate: 85.72%
Skill Modification: 30%
Modified Hit Ability: 6.76
Modified Hit Rate: 87.43%

Result
Total Shoots: 4696
Total Hits: 4100
Real Hit Rate: 87.31%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 6.64

Test done by: Recoda

[SIZE=“4”]Test Sample 2 - 1000 Shoots:[/SIZE]

Stats, calculations:
Weapon Used: Improved Mk. II
Hit Ability: 5.3
Calculated Hit Rate: 85.83%
Skill Modification: 52.5%
Modified Hit Ability: 8.08
Modified Hit Rate: 88.88%

Results - Without Attachments
Total Shoots: 1000
Total Hits: 846
Real Hit Rate: 84.6%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 4.2

Results - With Attachments
Total Shoots: 1000
Total Hits: 862
Real Hit Rate: 86.2%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 5.65

Test done by: RazorFire

[SIZE=“4”]Test Sample 3 - 1000 Shoots:[/SIZE]

Stats, calculations:
Weapon Used: Improved Mk. II
Hit Ability: 4.7
Calculated Hit Rate: 85.17%
Skill Modification: 52.5%
Modified Hit Ability: 7.16
Modified Hit Rate: 87.87%

Result without attachments:
Total Shoots: 1000
Total Hits: 823
Real Hit Rate: 82.3%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 2.1

Result with attachments:
Total Shoots: 1000
Total Hits: 854
Real Hit Rate: 85.4%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 4.9

Test done by: RazorFire

[SIZE=“4”]Test Sample 4 - 500 Shoots:[/SIZE]

Stats, calculations:
Hit Ability: 4.63
Calculated Hit Rate: 85.1%
Skill Modification: 36.0%
Modified Hit Ability: 6.30
Modified Hit Rate: 86.9%

Result without attachments:
Total Shoots: 500
Total Hits: 431
Real Hit Rate: 86.2%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 5.63

Result with attachments:
Total Shoots: 500
Total Hits: 436
Real Hit Rate: 87.2%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 6.54

Test done by: Witte

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[CENTER]https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/1/3/PkBattle.jpg[/CENTER]

[SIZE=“4”]Test Sample 1 - PvP Battle:[/SIZE]

This test was made to see what kind of an impact skills have on PvP-Battles.

Maxed Stats
Weapon Used: M2100
Hit Ability: 10.0
Total Shoots: 100
Hit Rate: 100%

Low Hit Ability
Weapon Used: Mann MPH
Hit Ability: 1.0
Total Shoots: 5x100
Hit Rate: 81.8 ± 4.3%

Without Attachments
Weapon Used: Mann MPH
Hit Ability: 4.7
Total Shoots: 2x100
Critical Hit: 1/200
Hit Rate: 97%

With Attachments
Weapon Used: Mann MPH
Hit Ability: 4.17
Skill Modification: 28%
Modified Hit Ability: 5.34
Critical Hit: 1/200
Hit Rate: 98% ± 2

Result:
It apparently is indeed possible to get 100% hits in PvP. What’s not so certain is the nature of the range from 0 HA to 10 HA. The base HA gives around 0.8 hit rate – the same as against mobs – but even at just halfway to maxed i was getting nearly perfect hits. I think it might be a higher order curve than linear, which would mean that skill mod attachments in PvP would be less effective than against mobs (and also mean that low (Hit) skills in PvP aren’t as important); however, it is not certain from my tests if skill mod does anything at all in PvP.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/3/8/6/7/hit_rate.gif

Test done by: Doer

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A suggestion for these test would be to determin the total decay of the amp or gun, and with it calculate the actual number of shots fired. I notice that in case of lagg your ammo is returned sometimes, as if the shot never happned. That might effect the outcome of these tests.

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I know I read somewhere (I think on the ingame mouse over info) something to the effect that Hit Ability is a ranking but does not translate into a percentage chance. That among the determing factors of actually hitting something is the creature you are shooting. Something I feel that MUST be taken into account (though will be very difficult to do so) is not only the MOB type, but also Maturity.

I have seen on many instances during a hunt, more misses on higher level mobs (Gen 07, 08 Drones) than I have on lower level (Gen 01-04 Drones). While there may be a smaller variance between closer maturities, I don’t believe it is insignificant enough to be able to completely disregard.

Edit: Something else to take into thought. I have experienced and read on various things throughout my time to lead me to another possible variable for actual Hit Rate (vs. Hit Ability). I believe that weapon selection mixed with skills may have an effect. (i.e. someone may miss more with a MK V than they would with a MK I.) Although it does not seem as though that would be an issue here, as the weapon in each case is the same.

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For reference, the previous thread was here.

Based on the possibility that the skill mod works as Recoda believes (our working hypothesis), I did some calculations on how much attachments will increase (or decrease) your economy with some weapons and they can be found here. Witte has included the ability to calculate this in the wiki weapon chart if you check the box “Attachments”.

Here are my test results (original post 2nd 3rd):
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/3/8/6/7/20070226-PE-attachmentmodification-81to91.png

Most of my tests were with the intent to check the effect of attachments on maxed SIB weapons. My tentative conclusion was that they don’t improve hit rate, as seen by the large departure from the expected hit rate (highlighted in yellow). This begs the question of what Marco meant in the live chat at Leipzig:

Jimmy_B: Hi Marco. Thanks for giving this chat! Thought I’d give this a go hehe :slight_smile: Do laser sights and scopes perform any function on maxed out weapons?
Marco_MindArk: I believe that the attachment mods come after the Skill mods but I am not sure about that.
Marco_MindArk: Meaning Yes, the affect it.
Marco_MindArk: (it should be like that anyway).

My thoughts are that he didn’t really know how skill mod attachments work, but until he is willing to clarify, we won’t know.

We also don’t know how the modification works at high HA levels. The two possibilities are that the effective HA simply increases until it hits 10.0, or that the increase contribution decreases gradually at high levels so that only at 10.0. HA does one effectively get 10.0 HA. I believe the first makes more sense, but no testing has verified that, yet.

There was just one sample of each of the tests on the unmaxed weapon, so that data is not very meaningful. However, it does generally support the working hypothesis about how the attachments work.

One big missing piece we need to help verify any results is the correct hit rate at 0 HA. It needs to be verified that it is indeed 80. We already guessed that the highest HA is 91% rather than 92% based on our (my) tests, so it is imperative to check the base HA, too.

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This is to add to the above post I made. This is the mouse over information from in game regarding Hit Ability. Clearly there needs to be taken into account more than just weapon setup vs. skills comparisons. I don’t think it can be argued from the below pic that choice of target is not a factor in % of shots that hit vs. miss. Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. (Just give some explenation as to why though :wink: )

[CENTER]https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/6/2/4/1/Hit_Ability.JPG[/CENTER]

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That’s very interesting. I could swear that the last sentence wasn’t there last time I checked it, I’ve always been wondering if the Hit Ability was indeed affected by the enemy though. Thanks for that post, + Rep.

So, does this mean that different creatures require a different level in the Hit Ability in order to have an efficient Hit Rate?
Or, does this mean that, even at 10.0/10.0 in Hit Ability, you won’t be as successful to kill one creature, as the other?

I think we would have to try different maxed weapons on different creatures to see what the results would turn out to be. More testing has to be done I guess.

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To be honest I definatly think that it is possible to build up a certain affinity for weapons.
When u get a new gun, it will always feel weird to use because its new and u got to get used to it. But I always noticed that afther a few long hunts my guns just work better.

And for instance I like to overhunt and lose peds :laugh: so I often go afther mobs with UL guns that are a challenge to hunt and I miss much much more then even at pointblank range so its not because i suck at aiming:)
While going afther the smaller variants i tend to feel i hit more and even have a higher average damage.

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EU is dynamic, it could be possible they changed it because they saw people did not add the extra decay from attachments to their expenses while using (L) weapons.

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I think it’s a little bit of both. I don’t believe (haven’t for a long time) that weapons aren’t skill oreinted either. Someone once asked of Marco in one of the Q & A’s about why they don’t make the use of unlimited weapons a progressive system based on players skills. Marco’s only reply was “What makes you think it doesn’t work like that already?” Case in point:

I have hunted the hell out of Drones using many different weapons for long periods of time. I can loose out sorely on them using a Maddox IV/Beast or 147 ME / Beast all the time. When I was using only a Justifier MK II / 104 amp I was breaking even every time (after selling gazz) and the two ubers I got were with this combo. I tried upping the amp to a 105 back then but found that I wasn’t able to break even then. I’ve recently taken a departure from hunting my Scips and hit the Drones again. This time I tried out my EP-41 / 104 combo and found that I can break even with them and even profit a little from the Gazz.

I really do think that the other comment Marco stated during some Q & A holds very true (although may change as you progress). Paraphrased but something to the effect of, ‘Anyone can do well. You just need to find the right combination of weapon and mob.’

Edit: It may have been equipement and not weapon now that I think about it more. Never the less weapon was what I read into it.

Edit 2: I should have pointed out that I still do terrible hunting Drones with the 147 ME / Beast combo even though I’m doing well with the EP-41 / 104 combo. Based on what we believe so far my theoretical economy is actually higher on the 147 ME / Beast than it is on the EP-41 / 104. I have over 1.5k more in both Rifle and BLP Tech than I do in HG and Laser Tech. The return difference though is grossly obvious and in favor of the EP-41.

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It’s true that there is a possibility that you will be more efficient with an Mk.II than with an Mk.V if your skills are a better fit with the Mk.II - even if the H/A is the same. It’d be great if it actually did work like that, but there’s nothing which proves it yet.

I keep thinking about that sentance though “Hit ability also depends on the choice of enemy and is not the actual hit percentage.”

Another thing which got me thinking is the explanation for the damage interval, it says “Actual damage may be lower if enemy has protection, such as armor.”

Now, notice that neither of these states that the enemy may be a PvP-target?
We all know that enemies in the PvP-zone may carry an armor, which will lead to a lowered damage interval. However, as far as we know, no creature carry any armor at the moment. So, the second explanation about the damage interval was only focused on PvP-battles. Isn’t it also possible that the first explanation, the one about the Hit Ability was also directed towards PvP-Targets?
It could be, it is definitely harder to hit PvP-Targets with higher defense skills, so perhaps the creatures will still be just as hard to hit, no matter which maturity level or stamina they have?

This is just another guess though, we’d have to try the same weapon on different creatures in order to see if it’s true, or if it’s harder to be efficient on certain creatures than others.

Edit 2: This may only have a small affect to the final result, but do you use any finisher on the drones, or do you simply fire the last shoot with your 147ME / EP41?

The EP-41 costs 16,34 Pec per shoot while the 147 ME costs 18,00 Pec per shoot.

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Very good point about the possible intent of the statement. I tend to think it was added though (and yes you are right, it was an addition that wasn’t always there) not just because of pvp vs hunting differences.

As far as a finisher goes, I never use them and never will. If there was a an eco difference to take into account for overkill, that would easily be nullified by the lack of armor decay. I can take down low level drones before they reach the range of returning fire with the 147 ME. I take much more damage on armor with the slower and closer EP-41. Never the less, even with greater armor decay taken into account, I will do much better on my returns with the EP-41.

Edit: Sorry that I don’t actually have data on shots as well. The only thing I track is return vs. expense as that’s my bottom line. For me it’s always been a matter of weapon vs. mob combination to find. Once I find one that works I tend to stick with it for a while.

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Something to add that may help some. I only just thought of this as it’s been quite some time since I was using a MK II on a regular basis. I used to recommend the MK II to society mates as it was such a great producer for me at the time. After they did so though, I would usually hear a bunch of complaints about cost and loss. That missed shots were a problem for them (mind you they were MUCH less skilled than I). I thought it was strange because I used to tout how I almost never missed while hunting Drones with it.

Not very scientific :laugh: but true none the less. At that time with my then skill set, with that weapon, and that mob I had very very few misses during hunts. I used to, brag :rolleyes: if you would about my hit rate in soc. chat.

Edit: One of my soceity mates eventually picked up a MK I though after giving up on the II. He immediately fell in love with it and I heard no further complaints. :slight_smile:

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I have a bit of info that might be interesting for your research.
With imk2 without attachments I have 100% hit rate in pvp (tested on some very high dodge avatars)
With mm on the same avatars I have quite a bit less hit rate without attachments (my base laser pistoleer HA is 8.0), but even with scopes and lasers that would make my laser pistoleer HA greater than my laser sniper I don’t get quite 100%
Against mobs I don’t notice any difference between imk2 and mm with lasers. There might be one but difference between 100% and slightly below 100% is much easier to see than 91% or just under 91%
So maybe you should add pvp testing to your research as some thing may be easier to see.

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Miss rate vs HA
The Effect of In-Game Skills on PvP
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I believe it is only different in PVP situations, and mobs all have the same evade of dodge level.

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Anyone who uses SIB weapons and puts sights and scopes on them is welcome to repeat the experiment. I will assume it remains as it was when tested until other evidence disproves it. :laugh:

That last line has been there a long time. The last time someone brought that up, i said that my take is that it applies to avatars in PvP, where there is actually a dodge skill involved in the calculation. I don’t think we need to worry too much about it, but it would be nice if someone does hit tests on two very different stat mobs.

Edit: I see witte replied similarly.

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Understandable to have that position. I only referenced that though to back up my experience with a perceived higher hit rate on lower level Drones versus higher level Drones.

Wether the statement actually references pvp situations solely or is a global intent is still disputable. The whole point to any experiment though is to reduce all possible variables to just the one being studied. As we all agree there is still a great deal of “noise” in trying to track down hit percentage differnces with or without attachments, this would be one less possible variable to eliminate.

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One way of thinking about this is how much mobs miss us when we have any significant level of Evader or Dodger. If mobs had an effective Evader or Dodger ability, it would most likely be pretty obvious. I don’t see MA implementing that, though, just like i don’t see them implementing damage-type resistance (burn resistance, etc) in mobs: it’s a RCE. Difference in mob hp, attack speed and damage is more than enough difference, and all of those don’t directly throw away the participants’ money.

Occam’s Razor aside, it would be good to test, but i don’t think we need to make it a priority.

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Well could the answer lay in the simple difference in agility on Drone maturities? Why then would MA even bother to put a difference in there for each Drone? It would be simple to tie in their agility to the hit / miss equation I would think. We already know that the difference in stamina has a purpose in regards to the health of a mob and that varies due to maturity. I think it may be possible that agility does the same for hit rate.

Edit: Gonna have to go on a scanning mission now as Akbar’s scans are quite old. Would be interesting to see the differences and wether or not there are changes to the current listings.

Edit 2: I keep seeing something about somebody’s Razor theory. :lol: My point though is why make two seperate systems, or more, for determining hit ability? We have a system that takes into account our evader / dodger levels when being hit by mobs. We have a system that takes into account our evader / dodger skills when being hit by an avatar. We have a system that takes into account our ABILITY to hit an avatar based on their skills. Why wouldn’t these all be the same system (equation?) for use with a mob that has a dodge / evade level tied to it?