A good way to test this is:
1 fapper (preferable adj or better)
1 shooter (~6-7HA)
Mob: Cersumon young. (Or similar, low hitrate, low damage, high HP)
Weapon: Mann MPH (Attachments with as high as possible skillmod)
I think you can fire about 600-800 shots untill it dies, which will cost just 8-10 PED minus loot. Cersumon are close to a TP and revival, and the Mann has very fast reload. So this seems to be a very efficient way to test it. Both avatars can use anti RSI software 
Intelligence varies hugely on mobs. What is the purpose of this?
The problem with assuming that agility determines a mobs Evader and Dodger ability is that different mobs have huge differences in agility. Drones range from 34 to 37 agility, yet even a generation 01 Second Entity has 123 agility. If agility was the parameter into the hit rate on those mobs, there would have to be a very noticeable difference between SE and drones. I sure havenât seen one.
Edit 2: I keep seeing something about somebodyâs Razor theory. :lol: My point though is why make two seperate systems, or more, for determining hit ability? We have a system that takes into account our evader / dodger levels when being hit by mobs. We have a system that takes into account our evader / dodger skills when being hit by an avatar. We have a system that takes into account our ABILITY to hit an avatar based on their skills. Why wouldnât these all be the same system (equation?) for use with a mob that has a dodge / evade level tied to it?
Occamâs Razor basically is to take the least complicated solution when two solutions seem to have equal merit. In this case, itâs very easy for MA to simply take a random number 0-1.0, see if it is below 0.8+HA*0.011, and if so, call it a hit.
They could also put the mob agility into that equation somehow, but that would be more complicated and require more careful balancing. It also doesnât fit with the known agilities of mobs.
Witteâs proposed experiment is pretty good because the cersumon has very low agility. The problem is that if the difference in hit rate exists, it canât depend on mob agility for the reasons i point out above. That doesnât mean there isnât a difference in hit rate for different mobs, just that it has to involve more than agility.
Thatâs the one I was thinking. Not familiar with the theory itself, but sounds like its a version of K.I.S.S. (keep It Simple Stupid) :laugh:
My intention in bringing that forward was not to test that in itself, but to eliminate that as a source of ânoiseâ in the tests. I donât believe we have a good control environment without taking that into consideration when doing these tests. Witte has a good idea above I believe. What we are really trying to determine is the effective difference in hit ability between weapons with and without sights/scopes. The above suggestion by Witte seems rather sound.
Edit: LoL ⊠sorry⊠slow poster⊠thanks for the explanation on the Theory though 
Thanks for sharing this mjukis. This shows that there is clearly a different system used to determine the hit rate on avatars versus on mobs. I didnât realize that 100% hit rate was possible in PvP. I surmise you have >= level 100 (Hit) in sniper.
It suggests that the skill mod either 1) works differently in PvP situations, 2) scales non-linearly near 10.0 HA (one of the two cases i mentioned in a previous post) or 3) doesnât increase effective HA.
Thatâs basically what iâm saying, too. The info from mjukis gives some interesting insights though.
I have a thought about that situation myself. (Probably get laughed at here :silly2: ) In my previous post about having better hit percentages with a MK II versus a higher level weapon (i.e. my 147 ME) I believe that the added benefit of the imp, mod, adj weapons lays in there base ranking. You will notice that most of these weapons are of the lower variances in the individual series. (i.e. Adj 97, Mod 117, Imp MK II, etcâŠ)
This to me had begged the question âWhy werenât these weapons made with the labels of there higher level couterparts?â and âWhy do people do so well with these versus there counterparts?â (That is, why would return be so much better for them on a IMKII vs. a MK V?) For the second question people usually use the Economy answer. For me the answer is quite different. Mine would still follow my belief in skill level requirements on individual weapons and also answer my first question. The Imp, Adj, Mod weaons are tagged with the lower numbers for there series because they have lower requirements than the higher numbered series. Thatâs what makes them so special and so profitable in the past.
I would loveeeeee it if someone would loan mjukis a MK V to work with in PVP and see if his hit rate is still 100% on these higher level avatars. That would really answer a lot of my questions on that area.
A little bit off topic, but I have read somewhere in the past that mobâs intelligence was tied to how often they crit you. So, maybe mobâs attributes effectively play a role in how well they attack you and how well they evade/dodge your attacks.
More on topic, and seeing mjukis post, maybe it should be nice to check if we can reproduce the pvp 100% hit rate with an (L) maxed weapon. I donât usually play pvp, but I seem to remember to have missed shots in the ring with a maxed korss 400 (against an avi standing still) :scratch2:
iâm glad to see someone say in writing what iâd been thinking.
and thinking im a bit crazy for thinking it 
i experienced this with argoâs
was skilling pistol on them with the korrs 380 and a 103 amp so i could max out the 400, and was doing really well..breaking even or profiting a bit on the iron markup.
I was doing so well that once i maxed the korrs 400 i figured iâd keep at them as the higher damage/sec would lead to less decay on armor and fap and even better return.
except it didnt..
at the time i decided to blame the high markup on the korrs 400 which isnt âseenâ by the system when calculating what to return to me.
or a personal bad loot period.
but maybe,maybe its what you think you noticed.
but then again,iâm a noob so what do i know
I am not a stats guy so donât burn me at the stake for this if its been mentioned already or is just to âout thereâ type of observation.
I use scopes and lasers on everything that can be scoped and lasered no matter if itâs SIB or not.
Hitting a mob is only one part of hunting. I can hit mobs in various places some of which seem like more critical areas than others. The critical areas I like to call the âsweet spotsâ. Now adding a couple lasers and scopes should increase your hit rate but I think they also allow you to inflict more successive high damage on mobs. Maybe it increases the âsweet spotâ hit box, who knows? I just know when I zoom into a mob at distance with my scope the successive high damage changes than if I shoot at it un-scoped. As the mob closes on me I have to zoom out to keep that damage as high as possible.
Just like in RL hunting if you hunt scoped with a laser sight your shot should be more true and damaging than someone un-scoped and lasers unless they are just a crack shot, which is dependant on skill.
I think while lasers and scopes help you hit mobs they also help you effectively hit mobs inflicting higher rates of damage maybe even generating more critical hits. Some of the weapons that canât be scoped or laser sighted, like the Adj VI, donât seem to suffer as badly as others, which can be scoped and laser sighted. Not sure why maybe itâs by design.
Like I said I am not a stats guy but I observe this everyday. I will tag a mob with my ML-35ME and get successive 100+hits more often when I am scoped into it than when I am not (the damage tends to be ~70-90 un zoomed). It also depend on what part of the mob I am hitting to me it seems each mob has its critical area and part of hunting effectively is learning those spots.
There could also be an effective range for scopes and lasers since they are all not created equal but that information is either hidden by MA or not designed into them.
I guess I have shot so many firearms in RL I tend to think of it in RL terms. Some scopes and lasers enhance a firearm while others are pointless. Scoping a shotgun is pretty much pointless while scoping a long-range rifle increases its effectiveness and deadliness. Pistols well they seem to do better with lasers but I see people scope them too but they are usually distance target shooters. If I scope a rifle its so I can increase my chances to inflict maximum damage at maximum distance on whatever I am shooting at.
Its food for thought but like most things in EU very hard to prove. Maybe MA will drop us more hints in the future.
I have noticted that if i (as a mid lvl player) go hunt BIG mobâs (in team), as Atrox stalkers, prowler and spiders i get more green lines. When i go âecohuntingâ on low lvl mobs as exo i seem to get fewer gren lines.
Maybe take that in to calc?
Thats my 2 pec.
And.. +Rep to Recoda for bringing this to uor attention
I donât think weâve established any basis for assuming different levels of misses on a maxed SIB weapon. At current market prices, the 400 with a103 is 3.4% less efficient than the 380 with a103, so that could indeed be your reason. Loot varies a lot, too.
We really shouldnât be using return rate as data because it is so variable and subjective. Short of counting misses and hits with a weapon, thereâs not many ways to make a contribution to this issue.
jdegre, m2100 with 1 PED ammo in an abandoned octagon, with both players counting misses, would be a great test. Then mann mph with 1 PED ammo and no attachments, then with a full 2xsight + scope setup. A final test with someone like mjukis who has such a high HA that the skill mod would put them up to 10 HA would be perfect. To see if thereâs anything to sirhcâs beliefs, the âvictimâ could record damage received during the test, and do one while sighting through the scope vs. not.
If misses happen in the first test, it should probably be repeated. The rest would ideally be repeated a few times to get a standard error. Depending on the results, repeating some of the tests on another avatar with much higher (or lower) Dodger standing would be interesting.
Iâll do it when i get time to login if nobody else does first.
[Lots of completely untested opinions]
[INDENT]The sentence on the HA thing has been there for a while. Interesting points made about PvP, but from mob to mob Iâve never noticed much difference - if anything Iâd say I get a higher hit % against big HP mobs (and not just because of tag/finishing issues).
Marco made a comment once that was something along the lines of âHA=10 simply means you are using the weapon to its maximum capabilityâ. Which doesnât necessarily mean HA=10 for Player A1 with weapon A2 against Mob A3 is the same as for Player B1 with weapon B2 against Mob B3. Seeing as the effect of skills is clear on HA it would seem odd if skills also affect hit % in some other way (e.g. MkII hit % is better than MkV if your skill level is more suited to MkII - if thatâs the case it would seem to me that HA value is very misleading indeed). But it is possible different weps are better against different mobs (think Iâve said before that Iâve often felt I hit Equus better with a Valor than a gun). Another possibility is that weapons have some kind of hidden accuracy stat and that HA=10 just means you are using the gun as well as is possible (before attachments for the sake of argument). Which could explain why I feel I miss more with Isis HL6 than with H400âŠ[/INDENT]
[/Lots of completely untested opinions]
Just read Sirhcâs post too, damn, I gotta stop using auto-aim
Could be thereâs a âloot boostâ when your using the right weapon for your skills then?
if you re almost dead you have very poor hit ability on mobs, maybe in pvp too.
I have noticed when tanking a mob and im almost dead, i know next hit will kill me but i keep shooting because the mob is almost dead aswell. But i miss 3 times in a row and mob kills me. So you need max health to do tests.
Itâs been observed that frantically mashing the fire button can result in âmisfiresâ where the weapon doesnât actually burn ammo, or more misses compared to a slightly more leisurely fire rate. I think thatâs the source of your experience.
The problem with sirhcâs belief, which i think every time he posts it, is that it doesnât really fit in with the mostly proven fact that the damage distribution is random. The only way iâm ever going to give it merit is if someone posts data showing it to hold, otherwise i will ignore it as i have in the past as a subjectively biased experience. No offense. However, if you care to post describing some of these âcritical spotsâ youâve found, others who care to could try them out and see if they have a similar experience.
Anyway, do i have a volunteer to do the octagon tests? I might be able to get in tonight or tomorrow.
Would be happy to help with that. I have decent (?) dodger (clearly wrote the wrong thing earlier) at just above level 30 yet those maxed 10/10 seem to hit me all the time. I may be a good test subject. Where do I need to be when? ⊠Iâm free for a while here. (should get some sleep at some point though :laugh:)
Edit: gahhh ⊠I work nights 
⊠thought you meant sometime sooner.
Many interesting possibilities with that but I donât want to go off topic here. Only reason Iâve brought up all these views is that I believe they are variables that negate our control group. There needs to be NO differences in each test comparison (or all we can eliminate) to properly gauge the effect of scopes / sights.
I would make sure a shot is not taken while the target is fapping, as with mobs Iâve noticed I tend to get hit more while fapping.
I strongly reject all the theories that assume different weapons have some sort of hidden hitrate or damage rate, unless someone comes with evidence. If it would realy exist, it would mean the damage interval and the HA stats you see in the weapons info are almost totally meaningless. It would also mean that our assumption that the IMK2 is the most efficient weapon ingame is wrong. Basicly, everything we know about weapon efficiency would be wrong. Besides that, I think it is an offtopic subject.
Iâm happy to join in, probably will have to be tomorrow for me though.
Yes, quite scary⊠but also off-topic true, apart from the potential impact on testing scopes&lasers if different tests use different weps.
PvP and HA
Ok, curiosity was killing me. I spent some time in the octagon with a mann and m2100. Hereâs what iâve got so far thanks to some help. These are all vs. a player with no Dodger levels.
Maxed SIB weapon (m2100): 100 shots
Hit rate 1.0
No crit hits
< Level 1 Laser Pistoleer (Hit)) with Mann MPH: 5x100 shots
Hit rate 0.818 ± 0.043
No crit hits
Level ~47 Laser Pistoleer (Hit) with Mann MPH: 2x100 shots
Hit rate 0.97 ± 0
1 total crit hit (out of 200)
Level ~47 Laser Pistoleer (Hit) with Mann MPH + 2x SE600 and 1900RS (28% skill mod â Effective level 60 (Hit): 2x100 shots
Hit rate 0.98 ± 0.02
1 total crit hit (out of 200)
It apparently is indeed possible to get 100% hits in PvP. Whatâs not so certain is the nature of the range from 0 HA to 10 HA. The base HA gives around 0.8 hit rate â the same as against mobs â but even at just halfway to maxed i was getting nearly perfect hits. I think it might be a higher order curve than linear, which would mean that skill mod attachments in PvP would be less effective than against mobs (and also mean that low (Hit) skills in PvP arenât as important); however, it is not certain from my tests if skill mod does anything at all in PvP.
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/3/8/6/7/hit_rate.gif
Using the asymptotic fn(x) = 1/sqrt(x) gives a result that has hit rate ~0.97 at 4.7 HA (plotted above). This function predicts a hit rate of ~0.9 at HA 0.8 and a hit rate of ~0.95 at HA 3. Some tests by players in the range 0.5-3.0 HA would be very helpful at verifying this.
Special mention goes out to GoodRich and Coulton, a couple of adolescents who ignored my request that they leave me alone to do my tests and thought that they were cool because together they could eventually kill me (weâre talking 1+ minutes here). Mad skills there, guysâŠ
I think MA stated some time ago that PVP was changed to allow irl shooting skills to be more importantâŠ