What is Piracy? ( In Entropia)

Planet Specific Discussions Space
21

My stance remains simple: The game allows peoples money to be stolen in certain areas. Whenever you loot someone, you are essentially taking someone elses possessions. That’s a low moral.

Now on the planet, you need to get a toxic shot to enter a lootable area. This is a good protection for new players, they can’t enter the lootable area on punishment of death. Also you can clearly see which area is lootable(red area). You enter at your own risk, and you can get looted.

Space is different. The game is not called “entropia stay on your own planet” it’s called “entropia universe” , Travellers need to be able to go from planet to planet, even poor ones, who could barely buy the lesser spaceship from their gathered and sold sweat.
For the argument the op makes to be true:

  • lootable zones need to be clearly marked (red zone) on the map, pump it full of rare space ores.
  • You would need something special to enter them, like a toxic shot
  • Travellers without loot should be allowed to get to another planet, without having to pass through lootable and getting shot down. Travelling with a mothership still requires you to fly down, either make the space to fly down non-lootable, or remove the fee to tp down, so poor entropians can still travel through space. Maybe mark a blue dot next the healthbar indicating the player carries no loot. Want to carry loot? Use a mothership/privateer. Want to be fast? Use a mothership/privateer. ON that note, space has shrunk or speed has gone up, it now only takes 5 minutes from caly to cyrene in a quad. it should take longer in a quad from planet to planet maybe even quadruple it (20 mins from caly to cyrene), so Motherships get more traffic.

Then I would say space looting is pk and not piracy.
I will still not respect you when you take other peoples possessions, same as people who pickpocket in trains (while it’s possible in real life, doesn’t mean you should)

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22

Why you compare a wager in a poker game which someone did put in without beeing forced to do it with the theft of valuable items in EU? It would more be in line if you would compare it to a person who steals the cash from the poker player when he left the table to go home and has to use a street which is not controlled by police force.

23

There you go boys and girls, if you participate in pvp you are a thief and mugger, for every pvp lootable kill there should be police report filed, since in eye of the law it’s the same. Innocent noob with 500HP and level 200+ in every combat profession unwillingly and suddenly entered lootable pvp while he was planning to do his daily run of Mulaak’f, and thieving muggers mugged him, poor noob.

Another noob with 350 health suddenly decided they need to carry their valuables trough space instead of paying warp 15 peds, and muggers mugged him. Unknowingly since the “You are entering lootable PvP zone” messages weren’t properly sent via pigeon to them (pigeon was tired at the moment of the event)

I vote for:

  • Removal of lootable pvp completely
  • Put all rare materials into flesh ripper (specifically the instanced ones)
  • Shut down the servers
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24

(Not aimed at anyone, but just so we don’t end up digressing into mudslinging).

As per the op, the discussion is regarding the differences in perception between those who are killing travellers through space, or those going after those who have willfully chosen to hunt the more lucrative asteroids in lootable pvp.

I do appreciate the mix of responses so far :slight_smile:

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25

Absolutely acceptable version of piracy in space. The PK’d miner in space knows the risk, knows the skills and knows the game. It’s fair. (If they mark the territories on the map and give us a radar that will help both types of players.)

The victims that travel is absolutely not an acceptable version because there’s no retribution, no avenging, not even vigilantism is possible. It’s literally raping - not even akin to piracy.

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26

With new space update and with space mining available in lootable zone for more rare ores and better content. I see no reason to have lootable zones between any travel routes between planets.
In order to enforce limits they can add an item weight restriction when traveling with regular quad in space.

Space tp tokens and warps are meant to be a time saver option.

Make space great please ?

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27

There are alot of areas that need attention, i dont think space piracy is one of them, everyone knows the risk in space, hence the motherships and warp services. as an everyday entropian that ocassional ventures to new planets if i go out in space i dont carry anything lootable.

the supply and demand forces take longer to balance things in comparison to the effects of the change.
People who are mining in space will either risk it for the bisquit for not, if not the “pirates” will find someting else to do.

the additional supply of the gems will cause some to take a hair cut (bummer)(but again a natural force in markets(ask AI)and the price of the corresponding gear to drop. In return would allow access to currently lower geared player to upgrade there gear. Which they then get to cycle at a higher cost per click amount to a larger ped loss compared to the players previous hunting gear.

MA isnt the only forces at work here. Im sure MA is reacting to external monetary forces.

They dont have the luxary of inflation in P.E.D sinces its essential a liability IRL so deflation it must be.

28

I’m nobody, but I fall into the “I don’t have to participate, and won’t, so it doesn’t much matter.”

When space was a free-for-all, I didn’t venture off Calypso unless I had a social imperative such as Society or friend group. I remember one such week-long furlough to Ancient Greece, and the rush I felt of not only crawling there with my Sleipnir and surviving, but also bringing back a shipment of Fanoos V2 unscathed was exhilarating. However, in just about every format of head to head, player versus player gaming, even collectable card games or anything with a price tag, I don’t play. If it’s not a game of skill, but a game of wallet, I am not a big spender on my hobbies and therefore can never be competitive. Card games have budget restrictive formats, such as booster draft, penny-card leagues, etc that I enjoy. Level the playing field financially, I’ll play. As long as there’s ANY chance of me standing toe to toe with someone else’s credit card, I’m out. As long as I have the choice to “sit at the table” or “walk on by” I don’t see any harm.

Edited to add:

Even in the earliest editions of Magic: The Gathering, paying a “card ante” was literally rules as written, and cards even had some ability to affect said ante. Heck, even POGS were played “for keeps” back then. Just don’t take my slammer or we’re fighting lol

That is to say, loss of real monetary value in a game is nothing new, and certainly not a crime. It’s not a mugging, it’s a game. Play, or don’t. My opinion only.

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29

Once upon a time we had space that was mostly PVP, where the only way to cross it to another planet was at your own risk in a quad, sleipnir, or pay for a warp. Btw lets be clear on this, Warps are not and never have been 100% safe, they do however offer a far higher level of safety than ‘fly yourself’. BUT but but…what about log off surely that makes them safe.. hmm not always.. what if ship gets stuck in warp.. so neither you nor owner can be certain when ship will be able to dock.. this has been days later on occasion. Same is true if passenger or pilot lose internet for some while (bad weather, PC dies etc you get the idea)

Given how huge space PVP zone was it should not really have become as big an issue as it did, except that MA created artificial bottlenecks, where entrants to space could be readily found, (Spawning of the vehicles from planet at the planet SS). whether a design flaw, or deliberate I doubt even MA know. But as a consequence we had space PK’ers hoping to profit from that nice localised spawn where it was all too easy to then chase down the unwary, the space newb, or those too greedy to consider paying for a warp, as a way to help insure the safety of their loot,
Lets be fair here, if in the Real World you needed to move a valuable cargo or a lot of cash you would probably hire an armoured vehicle or professional courier, or if you wanted to move swiftly to next planet and the activities there get on a high speed train / plane etc, yet avatars have forever bitched about and balked at paying a small amount to protect their bankroll, or save themselves the extra travel time, completely ignoring that the cost to the service provider is not just the TT of the warp, but their investment in the vessel, upgrades to the vessel, crew training and most important their time.

Had we been able to spawn at a location of our choice within say 0.5 AU of the server boundary for the planet, or in the safe zone around the SS, and then use a warp, then the ‘pk’ers’ would have had to patrol a much larger area to find the potential victims. Much like planetside PVP, finding the solitary traveller in a large are makes it more akin to finding a needle in a haystack, so lots of waiting or patrolling or organisation to share the search.

So get to the point Gran, why the PK’er / Pirate difference in perception. Again we have to look to MA and how their decisions affected us all.

Planetsde PVP (red zones) have to be a deliberate choice of the player, as require toxic shots to enter them. The zone can be entered around the whole perimeter, so easy to enter unseen. Players know the risks, but balance them against possible better loots. Hunter and hunted have the same possibilities, awareness, skills and equipment are the variables they control.

Space PVP, until the recent changes, you either spent your whole EU life on your planet of birth, or you had to enter space PVP for travel, and any lootables that needed to travel with you were at risk. Forced to enter the PVP zone from such a small area, that arrival was initially almost impossible to do unseen’ .
Yet this was not balanced by increased space derived rewards, as space was frankly devoid of any real hunting of value. Most users simply wished to travel.
So the only people to profit were the space PK’ers aka Pirates. They like pirates in other games and on planet earth, were often better resourced than the average traveller, better practiced as spent their time perfecting their space fight techniques etc, so ignoring any and all accusations about scams, exploits etc they for the most part would have had an advantage anyway. That MA were slow to respond to the player requests for the PVP zone to be moved further from the SS, the appalling misleading messages in regard to what is and isn’t lootable PVP, and the apparent inability to deal with exploits in a timely manner, and tbh they set the scene for space PK’ers to be hated, to gain the title Pirate

But space mining can, will, must change the balance, indeed already has ( we can now TP to other planets and need never use a space ship, yes there is a cost, but we do at least now have the choice ), we as players seem to have MA listening, this is our chance to offer solutions to improve the future for all.
Pirates should still exist but simply as the opposition. If the miners and space hunters are there in PVP to take risk, then MA need to ensure they have reason to be there, unique space loots. They could then reduce the number of planet derived loots in space and rebalance, so all players felt valued rather than trodden on

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30

Pirates are the ones who don’t earn the booty themselves. They manipulate, lie, bug abuse, bug exploit and aim bot or use a program to get an edge against anyone else. Having multiple accounts “hiding” in space pvp to scout for players.

That is what a pirate is. It’s not specifically Killing a weary traveler, but doing it in a way that you CAN’T lose, because you aren’t playing fair, just like a pirate.

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31

I guess one reason why so many react on it is due to they believe we have a RL value ingame, which we don’t.
We have the potential and possibilty to withdraw our ingame monopoly currency to a RL value though, but still as
long as the value is ingame its zero, no different from any other ordinary game.

It will ofc not be easier for some if they understood this, but at the same time, maybe they will look at ingame values
a bit different than they do today?

Some are just annoyed by the leeching in space, which is understandable, I get (or got) more annoyed being almost
at next server and getting shot down and have to start all over again. :smiley: I never cary loot in space though.
Now when travelling is way faster it isn’t the same for me.

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32

I don’t think anyone would care if lootable PVP in space was moved to asteroid areas or select spaces. What people have complained about is that people who don’t want to pvp are forced to pvp as a condition of traveling between planets. People come to Entropia for peace, relax, or chill. This does not include the idea that somewhere in your inventory, you might have something stashed in a chest or your inventory isn’t condensed that you forgot about something (just like the guy in planet PVP that lost all his RDI stash and pills, tens of thousands of peds worth). There’s too many gotchas for something that people didn’t want to do to begin with. And then you have someone in space trying to exploit that fact. It’s a far difference from being in lootable trying to extract high reward and getting popped. What does that do in the end? Well, new players get agitated and quit. Old players who forgot they had 8k lyst in their quad because it was at the bottom of their inventory and not visible, end up raging and quitting.

Then there are those who will keep attacking you over and over again to grief knowing you are non-engage, which is against TOS. Add the map exploit that we were gaslit about, etc - well, you can see why people hate “pirates”. And they all have it easy because most of all their interactions are non-combat.

And a brief mention about the land kidnapping exploit to space - exploitation of that mechanic — the spaceship summon/eject exploit that pirates used. I could go on and on.

It is slightly amusing (and taking note) of people’s attitude changes of space piracy (not the asteroid) now that the only markup left in game is green dots.

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33

The quoted post is not best described as a comparison, but as a refutation of a syllogism. The syllogism was supposed to be a reason to believe that it is theft to pirate in Entropia, something along the lines of…

[I]1) Whenever a player action causes a game item which has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency to change ownership, that player action constitutes theft.
2) Piracy is a player action which causes a game item which has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency to change ownership.

Therefore, 3) Piracy constitutes theft.[/I]

I was challenging the first premise by offering a counterexample to the proposed general principle, namely, an example of a player action (poker wagering) which causes a game item which has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency (poker chips) to change ownership, but presumably does not constitute theft. It would be rather silly of me to offer an example which does constitute theft. That would be like if you are unconvinced that Lily the swan is white, and I claim Lily is white reasoning via the syllogism…

[I]1) All swans are white.
2) Lily is a swan.

Therefore, 3) Lily is white.[/I]

…and while you possess swans of many colors, to refute the first premise, you choose to offer an example of…a white swan!

Also, I have no idea how you’ve come to the conclusion that traveling between planets is forced but wagering in poker is unforced. Entropians can and some do choose to remain on Calypso indefinitely, but I can’t quite figure out how to play poker for more than a few hands without being prompted to wager.

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34

You guys have so much time. Mindark choice to keep PvP. So stfu

35

The difference is that in the games you mentioned both can loose, here only one side can loose as the “Pirate” or as you wrote “the not Mugger” only can loose if he is so stupide to carry loot.

There would be more incentive for fights when the Attacker only can loot as much as he is willing to risk himself.

36

Thanks for your detailed explanation, but you missed the point: In poker or a card game, BOTH risk losing their bet. This difference could easily be resolved by having BOTH risk the same amount as in your poker or card game examples. So the winner only gets as much as he was willing to risk.

I hope that in your next answer you will address this main reason why your examples do not apply to the situation at hand.

37

I did quite alot of space hunting in an L quad a few years back. In those days you could press T, to avoid flying back to an SS to tt loot. I got robbed a few times, but the risk felt fairly balanced when esi were dropping from cosmics, and there was a better chance to run…so to speak then MA changed it, and I couldn’t use the T anymore.

I got badly robbed once on the way back from Ark, after an update where some loot for some reason sat at the bottom on the scrollbar in inventory. I didn’t spot it until half way home. I took it on the chin, but it was annoying.

Actually the reason I kind of avoid space at the moment is my L quad is on its last legs, and I dont want to buy a backup one before travelling, or risk getting stranded. I’d be willing to spend a 2000 peds on an unlimited ship, even if it had very basic attributes. That’s something for MA to think about i guess, now space has opened up a bit more. I really can’t be bothered with L and be shot at all the time. Just from the point of view of buying new ships.

So from a pirate point of view, it’s ruining my L ships that is the bigger issue. I’m not a fan of lootable anyway, and too old to moan about it. We either choose to play it or not. That’s the 2 choices..heehee

Anyway… space is fun to play. So always nice to see new development.

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38

I am confident that this was not the point, not because I can read your mind, but because your post was a criticism of how I responded to an argument given by another forum user, and this bit about asymmetric risk was simply not part of the argument you entered into. That argument attempted to infer the thievery status of Entropia piracy from the real monetary value of lootable items, a claim to which the distribution of risk is irrelevant.

You are welcome to raise a new point to attempt to infer the thievery status of Entropia piracy from the asymmetric distribution of risk between the parties involved. There is, of course, no reason to expect poker to remain relevant in the context of the new argument, but it is worth noting that a common practice among professional poker players is to “sell action” to others in order to outsource some or all of the risk and some of the reward otherwise present in the game. An example closer to home would be sweating. Collective Vibrant Sweat is a monetarily riskless activity. Similarly for picking fruit off the ground and so forth. The risklessly obtained items make their way around the economy to someone who uses them as inputs into an activity with risk (possibly risk which they’d opt out of if Entropia offered the same activity without said risk), yet it’s hard to imagine classifying sweating as theft for this reason. Piracy involves more risk than sweating by any measure.

So what about risk in conjunction with reward? Maybe the problem is supposed to be that the expected profitability of piracy is “too high” relative to other professions or to space travel? Well, it is again easy to construct examples of market conditions in which other professions offer opportunities with similar returns to piracy, at least for a while until more Entropians shift focus toward the opportunity and it gets arbitraged away. If this is your view, that Entropia piracy is thievery just if the risk-adjusted reward is too high, then maybe there is something you can do about the problem after all. The natural question to ask is why the market has failed to correct this inefficiency, such that piracy has remained unduly profitable for so long. There must be something getting in the way of folks arbitraging away the excess profitability. My suggestion would be to investigate the impact of sociological factors on the propensity for new and/or non-pirate Entropians to become pirates. In particular, a climate of anti-piracy may be deterring potential pirates, preventing the market for piracy from clearing. So you might consider becoming an advocate for the pirates in chats and forums. Sing their praises wherever the opportunity presents itself. Perhaps create some tutorials helping new Entropians to break into the pirate profession. This may create more pirates and help balance the risk and reward to their appropriate levels.

39

But in your example the risk is symetrical, both poker player have to risk the same amount of money to have a chance to win the pot, not asymmetric as in EU and thats what I think is the main reason the people are so annoyed with “pirates”.
Because of this imbalance in risk taken I think my mentioned change is relevant to this thread. If the pirates have to act like in a poker game, risk the same amount they could gain, they would not be perceived as pirates anymore I think.

Here in more words the same as above, same as you do in your lengty replais to short answers:
Yes I asked why you compare something, wager in poker, with something, you have to go trough lootable space to travel to another planet.
You decide in a poker game if your cards are good and you want to bet on them that you will win the round. When you travel to another planet in EU you can not opt to go trough lootable space or not so you are forced to enter lootable space.
So continuing with your examples, in poker if you bet amount X on the cards you have and the other parties have also to bet the same amount otherwise he has lost the round. In EU the person who waits for traverlers to shoot them down does not has to have any lootable item to get something in return.

I know you want to detere from this fact as it shows the imbalance in risk involved between the Pirates, yes here is the infamous word again, and the travelers.

It may be also seen as thiefery because of this above mentioned imbalance. In, your example, a poker game both risk loosing, a thief in real live risks loosing his freedom when catched, in EU he is risking the repair cost of his ship and ammo nothing else so this is not like a poker game in real live but more like thiefery in real live. Either the pirates face some real punishment when doing their “business” or at least have to risk as much as the person he is shooting at.

So both have to risk something to gain something, the traveler wants to gain MU, if he did not took the lootable by accident by traveling with the loot to another planet and the pirate would also have to risk something if he wants to have the chance of gain something.

Heck it would even give more fights for the PvP loving people as others would also have a chance to gain something by chasing pirates for loot, something the PvP lovers wanted or do they only want reward without risk?

40

Ok … interesting. Here’s my point of view.

As soon as there’s loot being taken by force between players, it’s piracy. PK’ing is when you take down another player (land or in space) without a reward (which is loot ) being involved.

Tbh I have avoided space back in time because I didn’t want to be looted and was afraid of pirates. Besides, I’m really a bad loser, which is also why I stayed away from EVE online (after losing my shit a few times). Maybe I would have enjoyed it more if my PK skills were better (or if my patience where) :wink: But tbh, shooting other players have (yet) never really appealed me … unless there being a reason ofc - and I did one kill ever in PvP :smiley:

To me, a pirate is someone who directly targets loot for profit - and not someone who takes down another player just for fun.

This Universe is a model of the real world. There must be a balance between good and bad forces to keep things from collapsing (or plain boring). In Entropia, MA has decided that both PvP and Piracy are legitimate gameplay elements. This is implemented through designated areas with clear warnings before you enter. So, if you step into a lootable or pvp zone, it’s at your own risk.

That said, I still believe it shold be possible to travel between planets without the fear of being looted or shot down. I do understand that OP doesn’t want to debate this but rather focus on the distinction between pvp and piracy and how it might change not. However, the game could maintain its balance by keeping certain space mobs and valuable resources within the lootable pvp zones. This way it remains a player’s choice whether to take the risk or not.

Personally, I would like to explore pvp a bit more - which is also why we’re hosted a few pvp events and plan to continue doing so in the future. If all parties are on board, pvp can be a fun experience. And maybe, just maybe, it could be a playful way to ‘strike back’ if you’re ever felt wronged.

Do I like normal, friendly players? Yes. Do I like players that PK’s in PvP? Yes. Do I like pirates? Yes. I just generally like most people lol (NOT scammers or twats, tbc) - and we’re all here to play a role in this Universe - each our own.

Anway, what do I know. I play mostly for fun … I’m just a Nun :saint:

[SIZE=1](so please, don’t shoot me all the way down to Hell now … lol … )[/SIZE]

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