What is Piracy? ( In Entropia)

Planet Specific Discussions Space
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I’ve been pondering this since the new space mining update, and thought its maybe time to open the discussion on it.

Anyone who knows me, knows I’ve been in space since its launch, and as such watched the evolution of the space pirate term, and the ebb and flow of both their activity and reputational harm. Initially it was just considered Pking in space. However it soon became apparent that targetting travellers who were just trying to get from A to B was very much frowned upon by the community. Something was different about pking in space, it seemed to do more harm than planetside. These people didnt want to be in pvp, but had to through necessity, very unlike planetside.

With this an entire transport industry and businesses sprang up, and over the years a sort of balance existed. Pirates rarely targeted the very few people who would hunt in space, instead going for travellers.

Now to my question, with the introduction of space mining, it has became lucrative to hunt in the lootable areas of space. There are plenty of spots to do it out with lootable, but the best resources seem to lie in the lootable zones ( which make sense on the risk / reward balance).

So if someone is mining planet side in lootable, they have chose to be there, know the risk and accepted they might not survive - their killer is a pkr. ( whether you think they are assholes or not, its what they are).
In space, if someone is praying on travellers, they are a pirate.
So what becomes of the pkrs hunting those mining in space? Does the mere fact that ships are involved alone make it piracy regardless? or is there something more akin to planetside when not targetting travellers, but the miners of space., who chose to mine in that zone speciifically.

What does it matter? There was a time where being known as a pirate could have been one of the absolute most devastating thing to your reputation, close to scammers and cheaters. Not all people thought this way of course, but a large portion of the general opinion leaned toward that view. So the question is, has this space update changed that dynamic? Space seems booming at the moment, certainly compared to how it has been for the past decade, so I’m interested if the opinion will evolve with this change.

To avoid any speculation, opinions posted here wont sway my choices in anyway, Im just really curious how perceptions will change again in space. I am quite sure in the coming months we will see more players who would have never considered killing travellers, making decisions to try pking in space.

For now I’m not making a poll, as I want to hear peoples thoughts not just arbitrary stats.

I am also aware there are people who just hate all pvp in general, want it removed from the game etc, thats not the point of this thread.

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I think just because vehicles are involved it does not make someone a pirate. Praying on travelers is one thing, trying to get from point A to B. If someone knowingly enters the lootable zones in space to mine M asteroids, they are taking the risk for the markup, same as planetside in my eyes. So no I would not consider this piracy if someone is to shoot them while they are mining.

I do think there is a number of people who will no matter what, hate PvP and always call you a thief or a pirate if you were to shoot someone in space, but the reality of it is people enter the zone willingly to go for the markup on the M asteroids, it’s their risk and their fault if they are shot down.

The same goes for if I was to attempt to mine M asteroids, I wouldn’t call someone a pirate if they killed me, as it was my choice to go try to mine in lootable, same as planetside.

Glad someone finally asked/addressed this.

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In my opinion, I think that for someone to be called a space pirate, by common sense a pirate is someone who steals from another anything that does not belong to him, making it clear that a space pirate is someone who appropriates the lootables of others in space. Whether stealing from travelers or miners or attackers, it will always be considered as stealing at the expense that a player has made.

Speaking of the risks that one takes in entering those areas where they can steal from you, if there were no thieves there would be no way for them to steal from you, so those little trash that seek to assault you will never be welcomed by anyone, including the support that should not exist towards them.

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As a miner who gets killed in pvp lootable and lose $ I can say there’s definitely a difference in a pirate who kills travelers going A to B with a lot of their bankroll in loot from another planet and who doesnt want to be there versus pking someone who is asteroid hunting. In planet mining I could go in mine up 50 or 100p or whatever and leave/drop off and repeat. Just the same as asteroid hunters can do and risk what they deem worthwhile.

Since MA killed mining in game I was actually thinking about going to kill asteroid hunters now myself. Since there’s no real chance at markup anymore it’s either: play against the house, play economy MU, kill others or quit.

conclusion: I wouldn’t cry if I got killed shooting asteroids just the same as I wouldn’t pvp mining.

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I never understood this big FUSS about “pirates”. Me and others did same thing in lootable planet side. What i disliked was the exploits in space and lootable and their wannabe attitude. You guys can ask Theocles and many others how i acted when we were fighting and how those level 10 plebs act in space.

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Dont you mine lootable from time to time? lol, just because you have no interest in fighting for the markup thats there, doesnt mean those who will fight for it, are trash. If you disapprove of pvp and lootable, don’t go in there. :slight_smile: Or do..

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I never expected the land miners revolt! Nice twist!

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As far as I know, there is no official or system-supported distinction between piracy and non-piracy (as there is for mining and non-mining), and frankly, I don’t see solid ground for a conceptual distinction either.

As far as any potential objective moral distinction in concerned, I have spent the entire decade plus since space was implemented trying to help anti-pirates articulate their reasons for believing that piracy violates some moral duty, so that each Entropian choosing whether or not to engage in piracy could make a moral assessment better informed by those reasons. The anti-pirates haven’t offered much. Usually they either offer reasons so restrictive they would render many or most actions in gaming (and life) immoral if applied consistently (X is morally wrong therefore the roleplaying or other fictional representation of X is morally wrong, or X involves a transfer of value therefore X is morally wrong), or so vague they cannot actually be used to classify right from wrong except possibly by someone who has direct access to the anti-pirate’s mental representation of a situation’s moral structure (X is morally wrong because X is “taking advantage” of other players, or X is morally wrong because X’s moral wrongness is “common sense”).

Similarly, I’ve never heard a reason to think space traveling and hunting/mining in lootable PVP have categorically distinct necessity statuses. No one is required to hunt/mine in PVP and no one is required to visit other planets. Individuals voluntarily decide whether or not to do these things based on the totality of their expected benefits, costs, and risks with respect to their personal ambitions and goals. Even if it was successfully argued that making space travel less costly and/or less risky would constitute net positive game design, on the grounds that more players voluntarily decide to travel in space than to hunt/mine in lootable PVP, or that the set of expected benefits conditional upon space travel is larger than upon hunting/mining in lootable in PVP, surely it does not follow that space travel is involuntary.

On the other hand, if we abandon the idea that the distinction is objective and speak of it as a purely sociological animal, then two further points seem appropriate. Firstly, it appears that we should regard historical anti-piracy in such case as deeply immoral. If I notice another miner on EntropiaLife targeting the same resource as me and start a blacklist campaign against them, fabricating a narrative of illegality or immorality to increase my markup by deterring their legally and morally permissible exercise of an option Entropia affords, then presumably I have not only violated my own moral prohibition, but likely also the EULA clause about not interfering with any other user’s ability to use and enjoy Entropia Universe (granted that the latter is too vague to ever apply with confidence). Given that might does not make right, this seems the case even if I am successful in convincing most Entropians of my narrative, or even if most Entropians form the same narrative independently. So in the absence of any reason to believe pirating objectively immoral, the “reputation deterrence” surrounding pirating strikes me as more accurately described as the chilling effects of a tyranny of the majority. I would not arrive at the same conclusion in the case of, i.e., reputation deterrence surrounding armor upgrade scams, because I would argue that the narrative of immorality is (usually?) accurate, although I might tend toward a general skepticism that reputation deterrence is able to filter out only truly illegal and immoral acts.

Secondly, we have the pragmatic question of which legally and morally permissible acts the Entropian might still be well-advised to avoid in order to steer clear of the real harm inflicted by immoral, false morality narratives. Here I don’t think anything is truly safe, although some acts are clearly more likely to activate folks than others. Dunning-Kruger is big here. I’ve seen folks go off because they were offered around the auction price of a refined EnMatter for their unrefined version (which is often incidentally pricier than the refined version due to low auction transaction volumes). It’s probably not terribly relevant that the threat of harm comes from a false morality narrative, as opposed to, i.e., trying to steer clear of the real harm inflicted by street violence; you do the best you can to walk down the safer streets if you value the safety differential more than the freedom of having diverse street options, and then you hope you don’t run into a lunatic anyhow. I don’t see solid ground for any more respectable a distinction between piracy and non-piracy than that, and find it far preferable to deconstruct than to construct any such candidate distinction, unless it is grounded in moral accuracy.

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You keep referring to it as pking and pvp, but it’s more than that. Most people don’t have a problem with pvp or even getting killed in a normal pvp zone. On the other hand, most people DO have a problem with lootable pvp for a very simple reason. Every lootable item has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency. Lootable pvp is theft, the in game equivalent of a mugging. It shouldn’t exist in a real cash game.

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I agree that the reason is very simple, perhaps a bit too simple to satisfy the role of a good reason. Do you think the “most people” who equate Entropia piracy with theft for this reason would also equate every wager in a poker cash game with theft, for the reason that every poker chip has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency, and thus that poker wagering is theft and shouldn’t exist in a real cash game? If not, then the general principle from which we were supposed to reason to the immorality of Entropia piracy seems to be false by their own lights.

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Well funny thing about lootable pvp, this is an aspect of the game that you are not forced to take part in at all. So it existing does not remotely affect you in the slightest… Legend has it, that if you don’t go in the big red zones on the map, you cannot be looted.. Not hard right?

Some people enjoy a part of the game you do not, get over it.

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I should have been clearer, the OP was about space priacy for the most part and I was responding to that. It’s very easy to become a victim when there’s no sign posting on the map. I don’t have a problem with planetside lootable because it’s clearly at your own risk with toxic shots etc. If they made space a little more clear then it’d be another case of buyer beware - something I don’t have a problem with. Also, you didn’t have to finish your post with “get over it”, like I’m some draconian nanny trying to take your toys away. Leave that language at the door and let’s have a civil conversation :slight_smile:

Also, @TheOneOmega I think I answered your comment regarding poker. If people willingly go into lootable pvp then that, to me, is the equivalent of taking a seat at the poker table (y)

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So just for clarity, if someone willingly chooses to mine in a lootable pvp zone, with free choice, knowing it was lootable and there’s better loot there, even if its just space, you wouldn’t have a problem with that?

Your first post seemed more aimed at all lootable pvp being a problem, which I’d addressed in the first post was always going to be the opinion of some but not entirely helpful to the question posed.

Just trying to make sure I understand your point well enough :slight_smile:

Edit to add- i think @TheOneOmega post about akin to gambling is a great analogy. There is a risk/ reward factor in lootable pvp.

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Yes. That’s exactly right. It’s late and I’m not being very coherent right now.

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My mistake, took it as being directed at all lootable zones. Ive always believed that if someone enters the zone, they are accepting the risks of being there.

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I think that the problem with space pirates is that they target travelers and noobs that aren’t there for the PvP. Some pirates may or may not have been using exploits in the past to get an extra advantage. Some pirates sit in space all day waiting for a noob (or maybe someone who’s distracted) to pass by to steal their deposit, I can’t even imagine how bad it must be for them IRL for this to be worth spending their lives on. Sometimes they sit all day near an SS waiting for someone to follow into lootable, and they have to be looking at their empty black screen all the time since the window of opportunity here is short. There’s been a alot of complaints from new players being shot in space and those are people on a very tight budget. We’re already a small community as it is, should such behavior rally be promoted? After all this is an RCE.

I also suspect that the loot algorithm might treat PvP loss like a hunting loss and return some or most of it at some point. You guys know your PvP stuff much better than me maybe you could confirm or deny this.

When it comes to planetside lootable it’s a different story. You need a toxic shot, you can clearly seet it on the map, if you go there PvE you go for higher MU and you know the risk. I think I’m fine with that. In space - if you’re a mere traveler - what’s your reward? You get to loose PED on another planet and risk your inventory in the process if the vultures are around? Isn’t the game supposed to be free to explore, or quasi free at least? Most of the content is outside of Calypso if you compare the maps.

Now with space mining things have changed since the good stuff is in lootable, if you go there to mine it becomes more like planetsdie PvP with a clear risk/reward system. It would be great if the developers can simply mark these zones on the space map and create a safe passage for travelers who are just flying from one planet to another, it’s been suggested lately and I think it would be a great addition to tha game.

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I understand piracy as unconsented killing and looting in space. But if I understand correctly (no clue frankly), the lootable mining areas are placed away from traveling routes, you don’t have to be there for any purpose other than the high reward mining, accepting higher risk just like with planetside pvp4. So anyone going there essentially gives a tacit consent to whatever happens there. I don’t think anyone ever called pvp4-er thieves or robbers, aside from momentary emotions maybe?

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I think when everyone you interact with other than your fellow pirate friend has something personal against you. That is when you know you are a pirate. When you cannot longer walk into town without someone throwing an apple and shout shame. When people start to conspire to get you back in some way. You get ostracized from the community to a certain point at least with negativity (your money would still be green). Now, does it matter well not really. It kind of sucks to wake up to negative comments or whatever but it could be your fuel I don’t know to each their own. Piracy used to be something you got into for life.

Edit:
my point is you can’t really ask if it’s ok because it’s not ok, (from the average pleayer’s pov) as it should be and that’s fine.

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I think there is only a small change needed to make it more enjoyable and balanced.

Make it so that the pirate can only loot as much in TT as he is carrying lotable stuff while doing it.
So if they kill someone they can loot as much stuff as they are risking themselve.

I read allways that they like to do PvP so with this little change there will certainly be others who wants to fight with the pirates in space as they can count on it that they also carry some stuff while doing their business. It would also be a more balanced environment when not only the travelers can loose but also the pirates. In real live they, the pirates, could face prison time or worse when they lose in EU they have to repair ship and can carry on with it so it should be at least that they only can gain something when they risk something.

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