Is mining always this bad?

What I was pointing out in this thread has nothing to do with taking a side in the mining debate.
There is a big difference between a substantive discussion and a tribal conflict, and what’s happening here is very clearly the second.

When I compared someone who has been around since 2005 with someone who has only been playing for a few months, that was not a personal attack, it was a perfectly reasonable way to talk about experience and likelihood of understanding the system. It’s the same as comparing a driver with 20+ years behind the wheel to someone who got their license six months ago. It doesn’t guarantee who is right, but in the absence of detailed data, it’s a logical factor to consider.

What I have not done at any point is claim that his specific advice about minig is definitely correct or incorrect. I haven’t followed his post history, I don’t need to, and I’m not interested in digging through someone’s entire forum past just to validate whether I’m “allowed” to question the way others are responding. My point is simple: if you claim someone “knows nothing” or is “wrong”, the burden is on you to show why.

What I see instead are replies like:

  • “don’t listen to this guy, he knows nothing”
  • “I’ve explained it many times before, it’s pointless”
  • “go check his previous posts”
  • “the forum would be better off without his falsehoods and shit theories”

None of this is an argument.
It’s all just an attempt to discredit the person instead of engaging with what was actually written. That is exactly what I called out as ad hominem and trolling.
To make it crystal clear:

A substantive discussion means:

  • addressing the actual claim,
  • presenting data, reasoning, or examples,
  • explaining why you think something is wrong,
  • responding to arguments with counter‑arguments,
    -staying focused on the topic, not the person.

A tribal conflict means:

  • attacking the person instead of their statements,
  • appealing to reputation, history, or group alignment instead of logic,
  • repeating “he’s wrong” without showing how or why,
  • forming a little group that just dogpiles with likes/dislikes,
  • treating criticism of your reasoning as a personal attack.

What I see here is entirely the second category. Someone points out that a reply is pure ad hominem and lacks logic, and the reaction is… more ad hominem and even less logic. That doesn’t prove that he’s wrong or roght about mining; it only proves that some people here don’t know how to argue without resorting to personal attacks.

That’s the whole point of my comment. Not defending a person. Not defending a specific mining strategy. Just pointing out that if you can’t separate “I don’t like this guy” from “is his reasoning correct?”, then you’re not having a discussion, you’re just doing tribal warfare and calling it an argument.

I’m still waiting for an actual, reasoned explanation of why changing location “makes no sense”, because so far nobody has provided one. Many experienced miners recommend doing exactly that, and I’ve seen some of veteran players and streamers adjust their position when hit‑rate drops. If someone believes this approach is wrong, then the logical next step is to explain why, not to attack the person who mentioned it.
The fact that I have to explain this in such detail proves how much an AI moderator is needed here. I’m waiting for more thumbs down, which only proves once again how right I am. this is the last thing you have left when you cannot express yourself substantively and when a personal attack has already been pointed out to you.

It makes sense, it is actualy one of those rare cases where Rattex seem to know something about mining.

That is the dangerous part, some new player assuming based on this comment alone might seek up he’s other posts and belive that nonsense.

Did he provide data to validate these claims?

My quote was poorly edited much to due me trying to stay up to speed what else nonsense he was coming up in another new threads, where he indeed did try to jump start exatly same loop of discussion why mining sucks?

Rattex has tendency to push he’s own idea about how mining should work, while ignoring how game works and every bit of data provided to him or any attempt to discuss what he think he’s “found out” by other reputable miners.

I agree with you on the part of not engaging with the trolls. ?

Dont feel bad about dislikes, those happen.

Happy hunting! ?

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I’ve swung +/- 10k PED very regularly before.

Not true. I left before simply because profitability relative to living was too low. I needed to hit 30-40k PED profit monthly to do ok in life since i was pretty much full time, but I only hit about 5-15k PED monthly profit then.

One of the biggest miners (lv 100+ now) since my old days is still around now. Dude’s a funny character :), he’s free to play too.

83-85% is the standard mining return without hofs.

just keep dropping.

Putting lyst an oil in every server Field that was unique and also making depth not mean anything killed it for me. Plus the market doesn’t exist anymore imo . Its a shame it got so diluted because I enjoyed the niche mining that it used to be

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Assuming you are moving around sufficiently, there is no need to switch areas or wait “15mins”, this is not a thing.

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Thankyou for the clarification.

What data ?

What I am seeing in-game are mining tools that dont work properly and have incorrect stats (max depth is off by 400± m) and descriptions (tools refer to bombs when bombs no longer exist)

All of it has been submitted to Mindark in the form of tickets. Funny thing is that I did not even find the initial issue, it was another miner.

Even funnier was watching him drop a probe, get nothing, move about 4 meters, accidently drop another probe and get a global.. oh boy I was pissed off when I saw that.

Don’t worry, he will completely ignore you and still waste support time with needless tickets because whatever you say doesn’t align with his spiral layer spreadsheet theory.

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What I am noticing is the diminishing returns pattern and really its becoming a bit much right now, when I see it, alt-f4 is pressed and no this is not a whine, this is what I do. 6 PED profit tt for the day is not bad, I will take it.

Stats are correct, the description says “Average search depth” not max depth.

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Very interesting confirmation.

We need a new mining guide :smiley:

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Don’t mind him he’s just trolling, we could use your assistance in the mining bot thread tho if you could be so kind my good sir. Or just look into banning the main bots at least to scare off the rest. If you need any additional video evidence etc let me know I already have some but can get some more too + the website they downloaded it from. Look into who they are trading all the ped to it should be pretty easy to see on your end I would think. Or if youre still struggling to detect for some reason then could download the program on a safe computer and test for yourself to figure an easy way to detect? Thanks much appreciated.

@Socrates|Mindark

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I’ve been thinking it’s time for a new guide too (partly instead of trying to cram testing threads in my sig). I’ve got a few of those to contribute:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/other-players-mining-before-you-affects-your-hit-rate.265523/
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/hit-rate-testing-round-2-claim-respawn-rates.265576/
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/finder-decay-is-returned-in-claims.270629/
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/mining-excavator-speed-enhancer-mechanics.287008/

For those who haven’t been keeping up on the background, the 15 minute thing as suggested in this thread before Socrates addressed it wasn’t ever based in any data where if you wait 15 minutes, your hit rate / mining overall will be better if it’s currently seeming poor. That’s different than what’s actually been tested. The confirmation from Socrates shouldn’t really change much though (aside from hopefully convincing R4tt3xx to drop constantly bringing it up).

What is known related to 15 minutes is that that’s how long it roughly takes for hit rates to return to whatever the “norm” or previous baseline is in that area (i.e., hit rate when mining before anyone else has mined recently) if someone else mines that exact same area down to the exact coordinates, same finder radius, etc.. That’s in my signature and establishes two things:

[ul]
[li]Someone else mining recently (~15 minutes) where you are mining affects your hit rates. That data hits the proof of concept, but didn’t look at how much it might change if you only partially overlap (likely not as much of a reduction). Some people only partially overlapping with others or their previous drops may not notice much of a reduction, especially given basic math on how area of a circle works.[/li][li]There is an “in the ground” aspect to claims where at least when it comes to finding claims , you are sharing that space with other avatars rather than it being independent for each avatar. That means if you had a bunch of avatars running in a circle auto-dropping, you’re all going to trend towards a low hit rate of around 5% outdoors. That makes sense too considering MA’s statements on there not being personal loot pools.[/li][/ul]

That’s it for what the actual data covered on hit rates. There’s nothing about sitting in one spot dropping every 15 minutes being a supposed strategy (where did that even come from?) or if you think mining is bad, wait / change areas every 15 minutes or alt-f4 for that time. That was based in a bunch of extrapolations and misunderstandings of both the tests and underlying mechanics that myself and a bunch of others have mentioned plenty already.

That instead really gets to the separate question of how at times you might see swings in mining returns / hit rates and if you can time things to avoid bad periods or target good ones. No one has presented data on that. I have some personal data on that and all I’ll say is that it’s extremely messy at best in terms of trends, so I’m pretty skeptical of anyone saying they’ve “cracked the code” on predicting when to mine.

So when someone like the OP asks what do when it seems like mining TT is bad related to this broader question, I think what I mentioned in my last comment is about as much as we can say because there’s usually no concrete reason to give people asking about why their TT returns are different outside of a few things. Most are more nebulous, not as satisfying of an answer, and not extremely in our control. Do you quit mining an area when you get something extreme like 20-30 NRFs in a row though? Personally I do. What I’ve managed to track on that is not structured for formal statistical analysis (super correlational), but when I’ve kept mining in such areas, I’ve usually had still poor hit rates, and when I’ve changed servers, I’ve usually had better success. That’s only for those extreme examples though and not a more typical case where someone is still getting a small amount of claims that’s giving you maybe just a subpar TT. You won’t really notice a difference beyond what you could call typical variation in mining loot changing things up in that latter case.

All that goes to say that when someone attempts to ultra-optimize their mining, it can be easy to hit the pitfall of running on assumption when we really just have some data on mechanics, not loot pools. You can do everything from having a super eco excavator, not overlapping drops, etc. that we do know about. That may improve your TT compared to what is would have been otherwise, but that doesn’t perclude you from having a 80% TT run either. It just means you could have done worse. That isn’t the greatest news to hear in OP’s position, but the key thing for folks just starting out like that is to remind them that it takes time even once they know they’re not doing anything crazy that’s wasting PED.

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For what it’s worth to others, I was at ~82% TT on a 3k cycle (which felt disgusting on my budget) but I’m at 100.69% TT after a cumulative 6917 PED cycle.

Even at 95% TT (or maybe a little lower), I’m pretty sure I could make a small profit.

Wait, Kingofaces, you only move on 30 misses ? I change zones on 2 misses and if it continues, I come back tomorrow.

I plan the coordinates of each probe and adjust the mining sheet based on my return, if I do not like what I see, I scale down to a cheap finder and experiment or log off and come back later.

I would also agree with you regarding loot pools,

Either the pool is too low so that you cannot withdraw from it, or you hit a pool withdrawal limit and have to deposit back into the pool or wait for it to reset.

[Moderated: Removed rule violation]

I looked at spiral math and discovered one hell of an exploit. Drop a bomb, move 500m away from where you are, drop another bomb and drop bombs all the way back to your first drop, you will find a long line of claims. This does not work now and should not be attempted.

Eventually I had the sheet so finely tuned that not only could I predict what type of resource I could hit but it was always size 5 ores or size 3 entmatter or above.

In that sheet I had to flip the sign of my cos and sin functions every 15 minutes in order for the advanced version to keep working. One extra caveat with this system was that if anyone mined within the same 1km cell as my avatar, I would miss.

I run Argus for a test.
One of the busiest zones in the game. Always people around. Nothing close to 15 mins till someone drops again on the same spot.
Usually 100-150 drops/day. Based on my availability.
Never stopped mid run regardless of how good, bad or busy it was. (max would change lanes if someone was runnning directly at me, just to be polite)
11k drops. 96% TT return.

P.S. Shout-out to everyone who chased my ass to kill thinking that it will change something in their returns. Fun times.

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Perfect, you do you. I don’t have the budget to do what you do, so I have to be smart with my peds.

What are your returns, smart person?

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Would be better if you stop doing that, i mean the come back tomorrow part.

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